Welcome back to the Oathbringer reread, as we approach—with great trepidation—one flashback chapter closer to the moment when it all goes down. This week, though, we’re being baited by hints of hope, as Dalinar responds to Evi’s urging and makes an effort to at least talk with Tanalan.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There are no Cosmere spoilers this week, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Past!Dalinar
WHERE: Rathalas (on the road, and after arrival)
WHEN: Eleven Years Ago (1162)
Dalinar and Evi talk in her carriage on the road to Rathalas. Desiring to make her happy, Dalinar approaches Tanalan and suggests that they find an accommodation which will keep his people alive. He offers a duel, which Tanalan refuses. Tanalan offers a different solution: They pretend that the entire affair was a ruse to draw out any highprinces who were willing to betray Gavilar; all Dalinar has to do is capture the caravan that just left a few hours ago.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: A Sign of Humanity
“You spared that boy’s life once before.”
“An obvious mistake.”
“A sign of humanity, Dalinar…”
AA: I have to agree with Evi—the choice to spare the child’s life was a sign of humanity, and sort of an unexpected one. I’m really sad that it came back to bite him.
AP: I agree, but I totally expected this from a narrative standpoint. I really like the nuance that Sanderson provides. It’s never just black and white. Sparing the child was good, but it led to more war. Not that killing the child likely would have ended better. It likely would have inspired the people of Rathalas to rebel with a new charismatic leader in place. There are no easy answers.
Heralds
The sole Herald this week is Battar, the Counselor, patron of the Elsecallers, associated with the divine attributes Wise and Careful. This could be indicative of Evi as Dalinar’s counselor, urging him to refrain from killing. It could also refer to Dalinar’s choice to have a conversation with Tanalan, rather than going straight into battle mode.
Icon
The Inverse Kholin Shield indicates one of Dalinar’s flashbacks.
Relationships & Romances
He marched down from the west—having sent Adolin back to Kholinar—
AA: Just thought I’d throw that in: Adolin has gone back to the capital to further his education in ways other than those offered by battlefields.
AP: Yeah, I’m really glad that young Adolin wasn’t here for this.
He often heard her weeping inside the vehicle, though whenever she left it she was perfectly composed. She read letters, scribed his responses, and took notes at his meetings with generals. In every way, she was the perfect Alethi wife—and her unhappiness crushed his soul.
AA: I feel like I say this in every flashback now: Poor Evi. She’s trying so hard to fit in to her adopted culture, and she’s really doing a good job in public. But… she’s still herself, and that person is not very happy with certain Alethi habits—like all this “killing each other” shtick.
AP: The degree to which she has completely sublimated herself and her culture to fit into Alethi culture also makes me sad. She retains some of herself, but only in private, where no one else can see, and where it causes conflict with her husband, Of course, we as readers know that even as the “perfect Alethi wife” she was not fully accepted by the other Alethi women. So she is so, so alone for years. It’s heartbreaking.
“But—” She looked down, hands in her lap. “I’m sorry. I don’t want another argument.”
“I do,” Dalinar said. “I like it when you stand up for yourself. I like it when you fight.”
AA: Oh, Dalinar. You just really don’t understand your wife, do you, even after twenty years? She absolutely abhors conflict, and he thrives on it. I’m really torn on this. After twenty years, she should realize that the best way to get through to him is to stand up and argue vehemently with him. At the same time, that’s not who she is, and I’m not sure I think she should try to be.
Ugh. She needs to respect him enough to fight for what she wants, and he needs to love her enough not to demand that of her. I keep thinking that without the Thrill, and the Rift, they really could have had a good marriage eventually. The seeds are all there, but they never quite get to grow properly.
Bruised & Broken
“I see beauty in you, Dalinar Kholin. I see a great man struggling against a terrible one. And sometimes, you get this look in your eyes. A horrible, terrifying nothingness. Like you have become a creature with no heart, feasting upon souls to fill that void, dragging painspren in your wake. It haunts me, Dalinar.”
…
“You asked what I want. It is foolish, and I can see there is trouble here, that you have a duty. But… I do not wish to see you kill. Do not feed it.”
AA: I could be wrong, but I can’t help wondering if Evi can sense the Unmade. Is it possible that she was a nascent Surgebinder? Or is it just that she knows her husband well enough to recognize a change in him when the Thrill starts to affect him?
AP: The bloodlust created by the Thrill is noticeable, especially as compared to someone outside Alethkar. Evi has seen conflict before, and the way Dalinar (and the other Alethi, but especially Dalinar) acts is different and more extreme. I don’t know that she would have been able to say that it was a supernatural force for sure, but the description sure sounds that way.
AA: It’s also interesting that Dalinar wonders if she knows that he thinks of it as an outside entity. Later in the chapter, there’s a moment that becomes painful foreshadowing, both short- and long-term:
A sudden fire inside him raged against those words. Was he really going to such lengths to avoid the conflict he’d been so anticipating?
AA: That “fire” is going to drive him to survive the upcoming events, and also to massive destruction. Much later, he’s going to draw that fire in and quench it.
AP: Much, much later. What is really clear here is that like any other addict, he can fight against the need to get that high for a time, but he quickly gives into the Thrill again. The destruction of the Rift is so horrific, and I think we get a clear sense that without the Thrill events would have turned out much differently.
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Oathbringer
AA: For starters, without the Thrill he’d probably have died in the ambush or on the trek back. But yes, once he got back, if he’d been able to get away from the Thrill, things could have been dramatically different.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“Brightlord,” Teleb said, “a short time ago, a large guarded caravan left the Rift. We hadn’t the men to besiege the city, and you had ordered us not to engage. So I sent a scout team to tail them, men who know the area, but otherwise let the caravan escape.”
AA: In retrospect, it’s so obvious… The timing is too good to be coincidence.
AP: And “men who knew the area” are more likely to have sympathies with the locals.
AA: Oh… I hadn’t thought of that aspect. That makes me sad.
“One of your own is working against you,” Tanalan suddenly said. “The loyal highprinces? There’s a traitor among them.”
AA: My first thought is that this was a little too easy for Tanalan; why would he even have thought that Dalinar would talk to him, to hear this? But then I realized that he’s just taking the opportunity to reinforce the set-up that he started with the caravan noted above. He would know that Dalinar’s men would investigate it.
AP: It’s a really good gambit. Sow dissension among the highprinces.
“Unless, of course, this was really a ruse all along, a scheme arranged by your brother, you, and me,” Tanalan said. “A … false rebellion. Intended to trick disloyal highprinces into revealing themselves.”
“Perhaps my outrage was feigned,” Tanalan said. “Perhaps we have been in touch since your attack here, all those years ago. You did spare my life, after all.”
AA: Play out the line…
AP: He’s obviously really good at thinking on his feet. He had a trap set up, and Dalinar is making it work much more effectively than Tanalan had ever planned.
“They couldn’t determine which one, but they claim to have seen someone in Shardplate among them.”
Shardplate? That made no sense.
Unless that is how he’s planning to see that we lose, Dalinar thought. That might not have been a simple supply caravan—it could be a flanking force in disguise.
A single Shardbearer hitting the back of his army while it was distracted could do incredible damage. Dalinar didn’t believe Tanalan, not completely. But… storms, if Sadeas secretly had sent one of his Shardbearers to the battlefield, Dalinar couldn’t just send a simple team of soldiers to deal with him.
AA: And the hook is set.
AP: And it makes sense to send a shardbearer after the group to investigate and deal with it. They just got really lucky that it was Dalinar himself. It’s a hook for the reader as well. We know present!Sadeas is a total heel and has betrayed Dalinar before. I completely believed that past!Sadeas would do the same.
AA: Oh, absolutely, Aubree. I fully believed it was possible—not only that Sadeas was willing to betray them, but that he’d have figured out a way to cover it up if it didn’t work.
The whole scheme, I have to admit, was clever. Even without the conversation, Dalinar would have had to worry about that Shardbearer, who just might turn around and sneak up behind him. Someone was going to have to go after him. And if the scouts had gotten closer (as Tanalan probably expected them to do), they’d have seen the “Sadeas” livery, meaning that Dalinar himself would probably be the one to check it out. The sad thing is that the ruse as presented would actually have worked out for Tanalan and his people, if it hadn’t been a trap. The city would have survived, as would Tanalan, his family… and Evi.
AP: Narratively, it’s just so good.
“Go back to our camp and compose a message to my brother saying that we may have brought the Rift to our side without bloodshed.” He paused, then added, “Tell him not to trust anyone. One of our closest allies may have betrayed us. I’m going to go find out.”
AA: Sigh.
AP: Yup.
Squires & Sidekicks
AA: It’s kind of fun (before we get to all the killings) to see Teleb working so closely with Dalinar here. It’s not Significant or anything, but I like seeing individuals who are part of his team for all these years.
Flora & Fauna
Eventually they reached the plains around the lake, crossing the riverbed—which was dry, except during storms. The rockbuds drank so fully of the local water supply, they’d grown to enormous sizes. Some were taller than a man’s waist, and the vines they produced were as thick as Dalinar’s wrist.
AA: Hey, looka here! We get to talk about the flora and fauna again! For all that this third book covers much more of the planet, the first two showed us much more of the stuff that grows on it. I suppose that’s because Sanderson has shifted from world-building to culture-building, as the story demands, but I do like these glimpses.
This, in particular, is a nice reminder that the Shattered Plains and Urithiru are not typical of the planet as a whole, with their freeze-dry barrenness. The lake is a stable feature, while the river only runs during storms (and probably the Weeping), but the water table is high enough to support some serious rockbud growth. I wonder if they’re a specific crop, or if these are wild vines.
Places & Peoples
She pulled her knees up against her chest. In here, she had undone and rolled back her safehand sleeve, displaying her long, elegant fingers.
“Isn’t this what you wanted?” Dalinar said, looking away from the safehand.
AA: I almost want to snicker at these two, but mostly they make me sad. Evi covers her left hand in public, as required by Vorin tradition, but when she’s alone she reverts to her western indifference toward the whole thing. This moment makes me really think about how horribly annoying it would be, after growing up without this tradition, to have spent the last twenty years having to do everything with one hand, and keep the other one all buttoned up inside a long sleeve all the time. It’s made even worse by the fact that she’s naturally left-handed.
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A Hero Born
AP: It’s such a strange tradition, and so very effective at keeping the women in their very strict roles. I know the original intent was to keep the Shardblades from women, but how do you even create a cultural taboo like that? How do you get the first generation of women to go along with it? So many questions.
AA: It’s a little weird how fashions—and herd mentalities—are formed. I would imagine it was originally a matter of showing off: “See, I can do all I need to do with one hand tied behind my back wrapped up in my sleeve.” Given the competitive nature of Alethi, pretty soon every woman would be vying to prove that they could do it. Then all the men are cheering them on, so they’re showing off even more. The one I question is how they got the second generation of women to go along—the ones who are old enough to remember not doing this, and eager to prove that they can be “new and cool” somehow. Those would be the ones who I’d expect to throw off the stupidity and want to be free of the restriction. Once they went along with it, and reinforced it again, though… within four generations, it would be solid tradition, and when it’s reinforced by every aspect of your society so much that it becomes an actual taboo to show your left hand, that’s harder to break.
It also demonstrates how limited travel is from the eastern to the western parts of the continent. Sure, traders and merchants do it, but most people don’t, so they become more insular, poking fun at those who have different traditions. Remember back when Evi first showed up, Ialai and Navani thought it was so bizarre that she kept trying to eat with her safehand? We didn’t get comment from Evi, but I’m betting she was thinking how stupid and bizarre it was that she had to bundle her dominant hand up in a bag and not use it.
AP: But the men have completely bought into it too! How do you make a hand super sexy? So sexy that you can’t even look at your wife without blushing? And only the one hand. The other hand is not sexy. That’s a really strong taboo.
AA: Yes, it is. Okay, I’ll admit it: I think the “sexy safehand” pushes the limit of believability. At the same time, I think it’s a great narrative device, so… I choose to accept it anyway. Suspension of disbelief FTW.
Well, that’s what we’ve got this week. There’s surely a lot more to be said, so let’s have at it in the comments! Don’t forget to join us again next week for chapter 72—the ominously named Rockfall, back in Kholinar with Shallan and Co.
Alice is zipping from one thing to the next and sort of running in circles. Drama props, drama costumes, drama sets… But the sun is shining, so there’s that.
Aubree is spending time ruminating on the First Ideal.
I have to admit that I completely bought that Tanalan was changing sides. The wool, the entire sheep, was over my eyes.
Two chapters ago, there were several discussions of where Adolin could have picked up his fashionita hobby and when he could have met his tailor. How about right here? he gets sent to Kholnar, and theres a 3 year gap between this event and the party. That’s plenty of time for a young man on the cusp of teenager-dom to pick up a hobby and meet someone who can help share in that hobby, espeically with him grieving of his mother, he would want to put focus away from that, espeically with his grieve later philosophy. Anyaw the chapter: this makes me sad. that is all also, about the flora and fauna, that’s because the books focus is more on the spren when we get there, and shallan basically losing the most interesting part of her character, her artist side for the bloody veil and Radiance bits
I think it should be emphasized how difficult this was for Dalinar and how much it means about Dalinar and Evi’s relationship that he would try to avoid violence. He’s not just a hopeless addict, but he’s also a prideful soldier/general who is really really good at what he does; and what he does is something gloriously celebrated in his culture. This is like the NFL league MVP making it to the Super Bowl and his wife being sad because she doesn’t like when he is competitive and scores touchdowns (this seems hyperbolic, but in Alethi culture, the war and killing is good, not something bad in and of itself, so like touchdowns). And then that MVP relents and goes to the other team to say “hey, my team has won every game this year, do you want to just arm wrestle instead of playing football? I know I could have all the glory and you can’t stop me, but let’s just cancel the Super Bowl so my wife is happy.” Dalinar’s been working toward this fight, anticipating it for a long time, and the willingness to try to just set it aside completely is a big deal.
With regard to the thoughts on the Thrill playing a key role here: I think this line of thinking pretty clearly leads to thinking Dalinar is NOT completely in control and is certainly being influenced by Odium intentionally. I know some here like to say that Dalinar’s refusal to give Odium any credit for his choices at the end of OB is proof that Dalinar was in control all along, but I’d like to say that it’s even more impressive if Dalinar takes responsibility for his violence when he wasn’t completely responsible. I think it’s clear that without Odium’s interference, the women and children of Rathalas live to see another day.
No suspension required. Think of the fetishes in real life. There’s people that go crazy over feet! It’s been my experience in life that men are much more fascinated with what is covered than what’s not.
AA: Given the competitive nature of Alethi, pretty soon every woman would be vying to prove that they could do it. Then all the men are cheering them on, so they’re showing off even more.”
The thing is, its not just alethi, it’s a vorin thing. I think Vedens, Kharbaranthians and possibly Thaylen’s all have safe hands. It sounds like it’s more of a religious thing than it is a culture thing, if it was culture, how would the alethi have spread it through three seperate groups? The sunmaker? because just from the way the Azish act, i would think that they would try to get rid of all of alethi influence once he was beaten back.
Fwiw, I inserted the map that I forgot to include when I originally uploaded the post. Just in case you wanted it. (Just realized that I should have included a travel line, but that’s going to have to wait until I have free time later. I’m just not as good at this as Lyndsey!)
Austin @@.-@ – “It’s been my experience in life that men are much more fascinated with what is covered than what’s not.” Very true. If I squint just a smidge, it registers that you could get so used to seeing the shape of a feminine right hand but NEVER the left one, to the point that seeing the left one would be shockingly obvious. So… point taken.
@6 – I’m not sure if it has to do with the actual physical appearance. I think just the fact that it’s forbidden is the allure.
Steven @5 – you’re right, it’s a Vorin thing, not just Alethi. And they all practice it with the same fervency with which they practice religion: Alethi vie to outdo one another in the outward forms, Vedens do all the things their religion says they should because they Believe, Kharbranthians casually do all the forms and don’t worry about it, and Thaylens do what works at home, and relax the religious standards when they’re travelling.
Even so, they are all Vorin, and the ardentia has a lot of influence over all four countries. And in all four, there was a strong interest in developing the role restrictions to the point of religion. On a guess, I think it spread as religion from the Alethi out to the other three. But I’m just guessing, based on current attitudes and extrapolating backwards.
Austin – Right, I was jumping a step there. I was thinking about how they instantly react to a woman’s left hand without stopping to figure out which hand it is. But absolutely – its not the hand itself, it’s the forbidden that makes it sexy.
@6 Wetlandernw
I’m now imagining Vorin women being scandalized as Vorin men peak at them through handheld mirrors, those perverts. But I’d agree with @7 Austin that it has more to do with the abstract idea of seeing a taboo safe hand than the actual physical appearance of it. I find it pretty plausible, especially as the culture reinforces the “sexiness” of it as young Alethi grow up and start hiding their safehands as they approach sexual maturity.
I really do love Evi’s and Dalinar’s relationship. How Evi sees in Dalinar the good man he is deep down and could be. How seeing her unhappiness crushes Dalinar’s soul showing to me that he cares, and even loves her. I agree the seeds of a good, healthy relationship are there. The tragedy is it seems all the external factors (Gavilar, Odium, The Thrill, Alethi Society) seems bent on preventing that, and they lose that chance. Was their relationship healthy? In my opinion it was not. But could it have grown into something better? I do think it could have.
We see the Thrill truly is an addiction to Dalinar. Like alcohol, drugs, and many other things, the addiction is not only physical but mental. Experiences are associated with it, causing cravings. Every time the person goes back to that addiction, it is their own choice that they are responsible, but boy does that addiction know how to sink its claws in to “help encourage” you back into its embrace. The first step to overcoming addiction is admitting you have a problem. Evi is bit by bit showing Dalinar that his battle lust is a problem. Just it is difficult when she gets drowned out by Dalinar’s brother, and Alethi society telling him it is a good thing. This really shows how far Dalinar has come and how much he has had to overcome to be the man he is today. That even when he got his act together, he constantly had other highprinces and even his own son urging him to go back to what he was, even if Adoln didn’t fully know what that would mean.
Gotta say Dalinar’s story is a great one. Tragedy, struggle, and hope all in equal measure.
@@.-@ Austin
I think if I recall correctly Brandon based the safehand off of a culture that felt it was taboo to see the bottom of a person’s feet. I would also add to this that China, foot binding was considered the height of sensuality by horribly crippling women to give them smaller and small feet like a “lotus blossom”. And that all supposedly started because a concubine was asked by the emperor to bind her find into shape of a cresent and dance like a lotus. Wanting to emulate her grace and beauty the upper class began to emulate it. Over time it got more and more extreme till it horrifically crippled countless women. Goes to show how culture can cause people to do things people in other cultures would think were crazy.
@5 Steven Hedge
If I recall correctly the Vedens are almost more religious than the Alethi in so far as they are more hands on with the Vorin religion. The thaylens pay lip service, so the women will wear gloves to make the Alethi feel more comfortable. The Kharbaranthians I cannot recall, though Taravangian’s persona of the kindly kind seems very devout to the Vorin religion so I would imagine they do do the safe hand. I think you hit the nail on the head with the sunmaker. He aimed to conquer all of Roshar but only got so far.
@6 Wetlandernw
No worries on the map. I appreciate the thought all the same.
@1 Soursavior
I agree that I found the trap and Tanalan changing sides totally believeable. I think there were definitely signs that Sadeas wanted Dalinar out of the way so that he would be Gavilar’s main advisor/power behind the throne.
I also don’t remember there being any solid indication that Tanalan DIDN’T mean to change sides. The problem was that Dalinar saw him as the person behind the trap (rather than Sadeas), and therefore reacted again him with a Thrill-induced rage.
@1, 13 I think it doesn’t help that we just don’t inheritingingly trust Sadeas. I kind of wish that it was either confirmed or denied whether he was telling the truth about the traitorous Highprince and whether it was Sadeas or not. I know it is heavily implied that he became more corrupt and Thrill-seeking after Galivar’s death, so its kind of hard to confirm whether a younger Sadeas would have betrayed Dalinar. Sadeas’ motivations are like with Amararan, we kind of needed just a bit more background, though I think Brandon did better with Sadeas and his point of view chapters than Amaran. kind of wish we got a few so we know when Odium was courting him.
Now I’m just thinking of the Amish Paradise video where the kids are looking at a playboy magazine with women’s ankles exposed. :)
@3, I like your analogy – and I agree that Dalinar deserves SOME credit here. He’s trying, the big lug.
And so it begins… I find those chapters purely horrifying as Evi’s tale unfolds and concludes in ways I couldn’t predict. How far Dalinar was able to go, how far his lack of self-control allowed him to plunge was totally unforeseen when all we got to read was the man presented within the previous books. I personally felt a lot of sympathy for Tanalan: his father was killed, his heirloom was stolen, his princedom was annexed by force to a kingdom, but he should stay quiet and bear his cross because the Blackthorn was benevolent enough to spare him… I never bought it. From his perspective, the Blackthorn took away everything which was important to him besides his life and yeah, he wants revenge. The mistake the Kholins made here wasn’t to spare Tanalan, it was to conquer his princedom through warfare, through bloodshed. Tanalan isn’t there to haunt Dalinar for his own act of compassion and humanity, he exists to remind everyone the war he and Gavilar led was unwarranted. Perhaps the end result had some “virtues”, but by taking what “you want” by force, you only invite others to challenge you.
I thus feel Tanalan wasn’t meant as a lesson to Dalinar, but as a lesson to him and Gavilar. For their war. For what they took which didn’t belong to them. Unfortunately, Dalinar doesn’t manage to have this thought process until WoK where he realizes how wrong he and Gavilar were to forge a kingdom through warfare. Tanalan was the fight of the oppressed, the conquered against a mighty enemy, bigger, stronger and meaner than him, so he had to come up with a strategy which he did. But it failed. What he couldn’t predict is how berserk Dalinar would become upon being betrayed.
In those chapters, I have always felt Brandon was using the antagonists as the protagonists as, really, the Kholins aren’t the nice guys here.
For the rest, I will not make the claims Dalinar is a victim of Gavilar, the Thrill, Evi and the entire world. He always had the capacities to be a different man, to learn control. I find the reality of it is he never wanted to try doing it until he killed everyone in the Rift. I think this is exactly what he meant when he faces the Thrill later on: he could have been a better man, he could have tried harder, he could not have let the Thrill ruled him, but he didn’t. Sure, the Thrill had an influence, but Dalinar’s great moment was realizing and accepting he allowed the Thrill to influence him. He wasn’t forced. He opened up himself to it. Willingly. And it made him go too far.
I don’t think Dalinar loved Evi. I think he cared for her well-being, but he did not seek her company nor did he enjyoy being with her. For me, those are the signs of a loveless relationship.
On the side note, I wonder how many readers realized young Adolin was in cart, travelling back to Kholinar, when his mother was killed which means he either heard the news quite some time after everyone else or he was told as he travelled. Alone. Without any close family members. I find it is easy to over-look what it may have meant to him.
@2: Adolin was 12 in this chapter and still a few months if not a whole year away from puberty. Also, Dalinar reflects on his son having turned into a fop, as if it were something new, when Adolin was 15. I doubt a 12 years old prince would be allowed to roam freely in the city. Granted though, those years of Adolin’s life aren’t well defined
@12 – you know, even to this day, we can see women do/put up with all sorts of painful things in the name of attractiveness – high heels, underwire, losing sleep to spend hours on makeup/hair, extreme weight loss, or even surgery (no judgment to those who get surgery for their own reasons). I’m not sure if I can think of any trends that are quite so mutilating as foot binding, although corsets were pretty bad. Those are still fairly old fashioned.
@Gepteto:
Roshar has communications almost as fast as our, world, you know. Spanreeds would let news spread in minutes. We don’t know who Adolin was traveling with, but obviously not his brother or mother or father (or cousins or uncle, come to that) so no “close” relatives, certainly.
@17 Lisamarie
I agree on all points. Sorry to get graphic but there are two other traditions done to people (some of which still done today) that are as horrific as footbinding. I believe there is an african culture that puts progressively more and more steel rings around your neck, causing the appearance of a longer neck as you grow up. It gets to such a point that if those steel rings were removed, extreme pain or dead would result. Another, I forget which culture exactly, involves vaginal mutilation because if I recall correctly, sexual intercourse is not supposed to be pleasurable for a woman. Actually I think there are a few cultures that do that, but for different reasons and different processes. Society and culture can be a very scary thing at times.
edit: correction the rings are the Kayan people.
@13 RogerPavelle
We do get an indicator of Tanalan’s intentions when we find out that his soldiers murdered Dalinar’s soldiers that joined them on the wall of Rathalas after Dalinar left.
I agree with Aubree. Knowing what I do about Sadeas in the current timeline, I have a suspicion that Sadeas was truly behind the plan to eliminate Dalinar. I think he would try to play both sides. I think Sadeas was secretly aligning with Tanalan.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I am curious everyone’s thoughts on this. I read awhile back that some people theorize the person behind the betrayal was Sebarial. What does everyone think about that?
It’s interesting that most of you found it plausible that Sadeas really was the traitor .
For me it was the opposite- the book’s have given us so many hints that past!Sadeas and past!Dalinar were best of friends, to the point where current-day Dalinar refused to believe in Sadeas’s real betrayal after Sadeas had spent five years undermining him- someone was obviously wrong about something.
@16 seeing how when Adolin is 15 when he’s considerd a “fop” and dalinar at this point is a drunk who can’t even pay attention to his own sons, and Galivar would have been busy worrying about his own kingdom, Navani and Jasnah with their own research and Elhokar being…well, Elhokar, yes, I can see Adolin being able to wander the city at 15, he’s the son of a High prince, he is protected by their own culture, so nothing bad would happen to him. Their society is different than ours, to them, 13 is kind of the cusp of adulthood, that’s when girls get their safe hand, Adolin at that point would be a pretty good duelist, it would only be a year away from him dueling to get his blade. so it makes sense for him to be able to wander around, meeting tailors and getting into fashion.
I got a bad vibe out of Sebarial during the flashbacks so while I never thought of it, now I hear about it, I am willing to back the theory he was the one to betray the Kholins. I personally do not think Sadeas was behind it: he was loyal to Gavilar.
@18: Even if they had scribes and spanreeds, they might have decided not to tell a young boy about his mother until he got back home. Either, I find it a horrible scenario: it is either Adolin found out about it from scribes/Ardents, no one particularly close to him, or he found out at home, weeks after everyone else, depending on how long the trip took.
@25 now that you mention Sebarial, I don’t know if he would do it or not. At this point, it really doesn’t matter, but while he is schemeing enough, he seems to be in for himself, what would he gain for a rebellion? he doesn’t care about military prowers, or revenge, he cares about…well hedoisim and making sure his people are at least cared for. It is a good question, as I still don’t think it was Sadeas, at this point, he is loyal, and they did consider themselves friends, the hatred really only started after Galviar died and Dalinair had his “downslope” at least, according to Sadeas’ point of view (to us its the beginning of the upslope)
Again, I believe culture dictates mainstream eroticism to a large degree. Once it’s somehow established that a certain body part is private and should only be shown to a lover or prospective lover, baring that part or even displaying its shape can arouse or embarass with its implication alone. It can happen to any body part — ankles, legs, nape of neck, breasts, entire body, etc. (Seems to most often apply to women more than men.) Though there’s a particular weirdness to having only one hand be considered to look inherently sexy when the other hand doesn’t.
@17: Reminds me of Lisa See novel Snow Flower and the Secret Fan, where the bound-footed Chinese protagonist narratively mentions seeing the wives of western men who had begun coming to China and pitying those women for their breath-stopping corsets and their big ugly feet.
@19: “Female circumscision/genital cutting/genital mutilation” is currently practiced in cultures throughout much of Africa, Indonesia, and parts of the Middle East, as well as some immigrant communities from those cultures in the US and elsewhere.
@20 ineptmage
I haven’t read the book in over a year, so I’m not entirely sure what happened when (were they killed only after Dalinar returns, for instance). That said, setting up a trap to kill Dalinar doesn’t mean that he wasn’t willing to change sides and support Gavilar. To me, it makes perfect sense that his price for changing sides was Dalinar’s death (and possibly the return of his plate), with Sadeas getting credit for then convincing him to surrender after Dalinar dies in an ambush by unknown “traitors”.
@23 necessary_eagle
Yes, Dalinar thought they were friends, and Sadeas was a strong supporter of Gavilar. I just don’t think Dalinar ever considered what might have been going on behind the scenes, which is where Sadeas worked.
#1 – I thought “surely Tanalan knows who he’s screwing with” the whole time. Made me seriously doubt he would try to back-stab the Blackthorn.
@24: We all agree Adolin, in between the age of 15 and 17 entertained a relationship with his tailor. What some of us found surprising was how deep this relationship turned out being considering: Adolin presumably only had two of his middle teenage years to develop it, has been away at the Shattered Plains for 6-7 years (an eternity at his age). How many 23 years old are having deep meaningful relationship with older people they have met more than 6-7 years ago and not seen since then?
My point was I doubt Adolin, at 12 years old, was roaming in the city seeking his tailor, especially considering young Adolin did not seem to care about his clothes (he loses his coat).
@26: Sebrarial is an opportunist who will play both sides of a conflict in order to make sure he survived. He might have helped Tanalan if he felt Tanalan might secure a victory. I personally never trusted him, but so far nothing in the narrative as indicated he is playing two sides, just one sentence in the early flashbacks. Still, I don’t buy it was Sadeas. We have his POV, we know why he betrayed Dalinar, nothing indicated he would have betrayed Gavilar nor the Blackthorn.
@26 Steven Hedge
The theory I read posits that sebarial was behind it to prevent Gavilar’s rise to power. That he was the hidden highprince.
@27 AeronaGreenjoy
Interesting points! Thank you for confirming what cultures!
@29 Black Dread
LOL
@28 RogerPavelle
We don’t know exactly when Dalinar’s men were killed by Talanel’s, but we do know it was after Dalinar went to chase the caravan and before he got back. Teleb tells Dalinar immediately upon his return that he tried to send warning to him after Talanel’s betrayal but Teleb sent the same traitorous scouts that lied about the caravan to begin with to set the trap.
I’m curious, why do people think there’s any validity to Talanel’s statement that a highprince is a traitor? Is there any reason to think this other than it’s technically possible? The people waiting to ambush Dalinar and his elites were definitely from Rathalas and there was never a shardbearer with them.
Well, I was specifically not mentioning FGM because that’s not really about ‘attractiveness’ in the same way, nor is it a part of the body that is typically visible regardless. (Although, interestingly, and depending on your feelings about this, some people get their boys circumcised for about the same reason – to not look ‘weird’, etc). I agree that it’s vile.
@32 ineptmage
I think the reason why a highprince traitor is seen as possible is because it could add another layer of intrigue. Someone at court that could have become a trusted part could have been a knife in the back all along. Though if it was in fact Sadeas, then it wouldn’t matter because he is now dead. Guess we will have to RAFO.
Did anyone else get a serious Faile/Perrin vibe from this statement:
“After twenty years, she should realize that the best way to get through to him is to stand up and argue vehemently with him. At the same time, that’s not who she is, and I’m not sure I think she should try to be.”
Just swap the genders references and this could totally be on a Wheel of Time re-read
@stormbrother 35 – No, you are definitely not the only one! I had the exact same thought – that Dalinar’s and Evi’s relationship is almost a perfect mirror to Perrin and Faile’s…minus all the implied spanking and other….unfavourable aspects of that relationship, up to and including the PLOD
Poor Evi is so right. That poor woman! As a left handed person I can’t even get myself to commit to wearing a havah for cosplay, let alone every day for 20 years! I remember after this chapter thinking that it was possible that the marriage could maybe work better-maybe there was some understanding starting finally- but then it all gets smashed again.
For the record, I fully believed Sadeas was a traitor for real on the first read. If only it had been that easy! But no, thousands have to die instead. Which makes a dark and wonderful story.
No denying, this is the setup for one of the most pivotal scenes in the book. Love it and hate it both. And that’s all the brain power I have for today. Thanks ladies!
I think some of yall are forgetting that a roshar year is almost 2 earth years, so ages as stated in the books need to account for that, roshar ages are roughly 1.6x earth ages.
I remember being so glad when reading this chapter for the first time – can it be true that everything will be settled without a bloodshed? That Evi will have her wish and their relationship with Dalinar will improve? That things might get nicer instead of more horrific? And then the next flashbacks came. Sigh …
For what it’s worth, I also don’t believe it was Sadeas. Seems to me too much like we are supposed to be suspicious of him, but I believe he really supported Gavilar back then. But then again, it is BWS, so .. there’s always another secret.
@35 – hah, same. Although I actually like Faile+Perrin, PLOD withstanding. And Faile (despite what her naysayers say) isn’t QUITE as bad as Thrill addicted-Dalinar ;)
@many: I admit to being very open to believing Sadeas was a traitor and was right there with Dalinar. But now, I do believe Sadeas after the events that he was loyal. As others have mentioned – I think at this point he still fully supported Gavilar’s rule and vision and viewed Dalinar as a useful tool in that. No need to betray them. Now, Ialai… she always was the more devious and I could see her secretly (even from Sadeas) sending supplies/info to Rathalas to stoke the rebellion to set the stage for a brutal show of power to finalize/cement Kholin rule. Basically, if there was any support from the Sadeas forces at all, I think it was meant to be a false support just to get Rathalas to rebel enough so they could be crushed completely. So, if it wasn’t them, and there was a high prince, who was it? I actually haven’t thought of that before. I guess I just assumed it was one of the recently conquered ones who weren’t happy. Maybe one of those that side with Sadeas in WoR. I hope it wasn’t Sebarial. While I don’t fully trust him, I want to! He’s so fun!
@38 I also had questions about timing and such and someone explained it to me that while the year is longer, the days are shorter and it actually works out that a Rosharan year is closer to 1.1 of our years, so the age differences aren’t quite as dramatic as you might think.
@40 Ha! Yes, not quite as bad.
I do not think, that we will ever find out, if some highprince supported Talenel. I consider his statements about the caravan as outright lies. I would think some highprinces gave him tacit approval, what Talenel confused with promised support. (Have we ever been told, what his status is in Alethi society?)
The purpose of these rumours of highprinces is imho to show the rebellion in a more believable light. Rathelas is a more or less small political entity with no chance of success on their own. As we will be shown.
That been said I consider the Rift more a plot device with some suspension of disbelief than a fleshed-out political conflict. But I am fine with that. We are in the flash-backs, and I think, further explanation would dilute the narrative. Might be though, we see it again. It is situated conspiciously half-way between Kholinar and the Shattered Plains.
PS: I am Knut , European and like to participate in the discussion. I have enjoyed the reread from the beginning and I want to thank Alice, Lin and Aubrey for their great effort.
Besides I am an ardent Shallan fan.
@42 Knuti
Dalinar refers to Tanalan the elder as “brightlord” before they attack the city. While searching for him, Dalinar refers to Tanalan the elder to himself as “highlord”. Tanalan the younger claimed heir to Tanalan the elder, and claimed the shardblade oathbringer was taken without a true contest. So I think Tanalan the elder was high enough to have a large enough standing army. Not sure if he would have been considered a highprince, but he had enough clout that he had to either be converted to the cause or taken out.
edit: remember, for the Alethi, the right to rule means you are strong enough to either get people to follow you, or make them follow you.
We actually have a fairly convincing evidence as to who was supposed to be the traitor – Sadeas won a duel to the death against Highprince Yemev 10 years prior to WoR (or maybe TWoK?), IIRC, which puts it shortly after the events at Rathalas. Aladar replaced Yemev as a Highprince.
Also, I found this rather odd:
“But… storms, if Sadeas secretly had sent one of his Shardbearers to the battlefield”
Because nowhere else in the 3 books was it even hinted that Sadeas had _any_ Shardbearers apart from himself until Amaram came along. They neither appeared on-screen, despite us getting a pretty good look at his forces’ operations both on the Shattered Plains and in Alethkar, nor were they ever mentioned except in this one chapter.
And now that I think about it – Yemev was supposed to have been rich and powerful, so how come that Sadeas didn’t win even one Shard off him?
Concerning alluring body parts – I remember reading how during the Napoleonic era and later high society ball-gowns left the shoulders naked and sported pretty generous cleavages, but they and other adult women’s clothes were floor-length – and men were crazy about catching a glimpse at a woman’s ankle! ;) So, yea, I don’t find it unbelievable that left hands would come to be seen as erotic.
The foreboding certainly builds in these flashbacks, even on a first read. I didn’t expect what happened, but I knew from the main storyline that Something Bad was eventually going to do away with Evi and make Dalinar forget her.
I think Sebrarial being the traitor makes a lot of sense…
For one, he is a business man and he might have seen an opportunity to conduct affairs by being the sole providers of goods to a rebellious princedom. It would totally fit within his interests as we later see him built an economy trading goods on the Shattered Plains.
For second, he never puts all of his eggs within the same basket. It there is a conflict, he will play both sides up until he figures out which one will win. He did so on the Shattered Plains by being “neutral” up until he chose to follow Dalinar, a quite outlandish move for him which still hasn’t been well explained. He isn’t a man to take a chance nor a gamble which makes me think if he did follow Dalinar, he probably still had ties with the ones who stayed behind. This could be illustrated by him sending his men back to the Shattered Plains to keep on developing his business. Clearly, he has deals over there: it seems logical to think he also has dealings with the remaining Highprinces, the ones who refused to move to Urithiru. I think we tend to forget not all of them followed Dalinar…
So in the optic of a rebellion spurring within Alethkar, I find it would have been very consistent of Sebrarial’s character to start developing a relationship with Tanalan. The talk of traitors might have been bigger than we think… If Tanalan thought he could win, if at least one “other” was willing to back him out, if he was willing to throw away such an easy way back into the kingdom without a fuss, then he must have had good reasons to think so. This makes me think perhaps, had he been successful in killing the Blackthorn, more than one Highprince would have followed into the upheaval of Gavilar’s reign. So while there might have been only one “official traitor”, I wouldn’t be surprised if talks had involved others promising to support Tanalan shall he get them rid of Dalinar.
Hence, the gamble might have been bigger then we think and if it were, then it would have been logical for Sebrarial to prepare his ties with Tanalan, while nurturing his ties to Gavilar, just so he’d have a rock to jump onto no matter what happens.
It is likely the sheer brutality of what happened at the Rift killed all talk of potential rebellion.
As I said before, at this point in time, Sadeas’s interests seemed aligned with the Kholins. I thus wouldn’t think he was the traitor though the narrative certainly wants us to believe he was. That particular story arc may not be entirely done, with the truth coming out and Sadeas’s murder still needing being dealt with.
@27 I’m reminded of Wise Man’s Fear. The Adem see music as an exceptionally intimate thing, performing only for close family and lovers. So Kvothe as a minstrel is effectively a prostitute to the Adem.
Sadeas could have been the traitor. I can see him playing both sides in a conflict that his best bud Gavilar wasn’t directly involved in (by directly I mean actually in the field with the troops). It would explain his actions later on as well. Carrying out Dalinar’s orders to the extent he did could have been a cover for a failed gambit. The destruction at the Rift used to rid the world of any evidence that would indicate Sadeas was being anything other than completely loyal to the Kholin throne. That’s plausible to me.
@dashardie
I don’t know that acronym and it’s hard to do a web search for an initialism that is also a real word. I would expect that it’s “Plot Something of Doom” but maybe not? Would a more culturally-embedded person please help me out?
I read the first Wheel of Time book and was completely uninterested. Never came back to it. I also read Song of Ice and Fire and found it profoundly slow and uninteresting and never returned to the Game of Thrones. I actually know GRRM and like almost everything else he has written. If you’re going to write a 1,000 page doorstopper, start the plot and move it forward, darn it!
@ALL: Tanalan is not a Herald. Please stop combining his name with Taln’s full name. Thank you.
@49 – PLOD – Plotline of Doom
Gepeto @46:
While I do think that a number of Highprinces were waiting to see how the dice would fall and maybe even extended tentative ouvertures towards Tanalan Jr., Yemev fits the role of the secret backer much better than anybody else, given the timing and the manner of his demise. At the very least, we can be sure that Gavilar came to the conclusion that it was him – hence the whole manipulating him into a duel to the death, which Kholins later tried to replicate with Sadeas, for pretty much the same reason. And therefore Sadeas as the challenger in that earlier case, because he was the one who had been framed by Tanalan and Co.
I completely disagree that Tanalan Jr. was anything but arrogant, selfish and deluded when he hatched his plan. Whether we like it or not, most countries became such via conquest and constant squabbling of minor independent principalities at the feudal stage, was, for the most part, only detrimental to their people. Alethkar wasn’t some peaceful utopia before the Kholin bros came along – there were constant wars and power struggles already. Tanalan was no freedom fighter, who wanted to improve his people’s lot – he was obssessed by revenge to the exclusion of everything else, including his children’s lives and future. His nonsensical claim that Oathbringer was “stolen” because Dalinar left him alive practically guaranteed that his own children wouldn’t be spared. And no, looking at RL history it seems rather unlikely that Rathalas would have rebelled at that time without Tanalan Jr. Extermination of the conquered ruler’s bloodline did very much help with successful integration of conquered territories in most cases – which is why it was so popular. So, let’s not absolve Tanalan Jr. of _his_ responsibility for the disaster – he may not have known that Dalinar would go that far, but he did know that he was gambling with the lives of his family and a lot of his subjects – and for what? If Alethkar descended into the chaos of the civil war, it is unlikely that they wouldn’t have been drawn into it as well.
EvilMonkey @45:
Sadeas’s PoV chapter in WoR makes it very unlikely that he was the traitor back then. It showed very clearly how and why he eventually became a traitor to Kholins and demonstrated his lingering loyalty to Gavilar (though not his son) and his admiration of the Blackthorn. Besides, he was one of the people responsible for the conquest of Rathalas in the first place and one of the pillars of Gavilar’s rule, so he was one of the main targets of Tanalan’s thirst for vengeance. The plot was quite elegant – take out Dalinar, frame Sadeas for it, so that Gavilar has to take his second pillar out himself, then topple Gavilar. All the 3 leaders responsible for the conquest of Rathalas and death of Tanalan Sr. accounted for, all dying thinking themselves betrayed by one of the others.
I’d also like to point out that Jasnah was in her twenties when this happened, so the Kholins weren’t wholly dependent on Ialai’s spy network any more. And that duel to the death with Yemev and apparent removal of his family from succession to the Princedom in favor of Aladar suggests a very serious transgression on the late Highprince’s part. What could it have been, if not plotting with Tanalan Jr.?
By the by, I’d really like to know for sure what happened to the families of Kalanor, Yemev, etc. Were they killed, as seems likely? Were “just” the males killed, since it looks like the females couldn’t inherit land in Alethkar? Is Sanderson going to make it so that both were single men, the last of their lines? Which would feel very improbable and contrived…
@51: Does anyone remember the timeline for Yemev’s removal? Since we already heard of Sadeas’s successes at taking him out of the equation, it seems to me the narrative would have mentioned if the reason behind the scheeming was betrayal. He’s also a character we know next to nothing of besides his reluctance to support Gavilar. We do not know his personality nor his motivations, but we do know Sebrarial. We do know he will play both sides of a conflicts. We do know he is more interested in economy and trading goods than in warfare, hence the material supplying role does fit what we do know of him. Granted though we do not have the data to confirm nor infirm it.
I agree with you on Sadeas. I agree the plan was to remove Dalinar and blame Sadeas for it in order to weaken Gavilar’s rule. I would add Sadeas, despite all his wrongs, never were a two faces player. Each time he took a side, he stuck to it, he never tried to play both options at once and if it appears he might have done so, in WoK, I think he merely was in the process of betraying Dalinar, not trying to have a way back in shall he fail. So I am definitely within the “Sadeas was framed for it and had nothing to do about it” bandwagon. Now has to whom it was, I think we all lack the additional facts to draw in a conclusion. I am still leaning within the Sebrarial bandwagon: I find it plausible, based on what we know of his character.
On the matter of Tanalan, I’ll say I am not seeing things within the same manner. While I agree “logic and reason” should have dictated Tanalan to think twice before he tries to tackle the Kholins, especially given we do know how it ends (Tanalan doesn’t, he thought he could win). “Logic and reason” should have told him to drop all accusations of Dalinar having stolen his heirloom (which he totally did, Tanalan jr had taken ownership of the Shardblade, Dalinar tossed him away and took the Blade, sure he spared his life, but he still took the Blade belonging to someone else: that’s thievery), but human beings aren’t always “logical and rational”. Tanalan’s quest was a very emotional one, one filled with anger towards a man who killed his father and walked away with his Shardblade. Now, I will probably be one of the only ones here, but I do think Dalinar wasn’t in his right to claim Oathbringer for himself after Tanalan Jr had taken it in his hands. Had he left the Shardblade to the boy, the rebellion would have probably not happened. Had he given away Oahthbringer, the betrayal might not have happened.
And honestly, while the Kholins were arguably trying to built a more sturdy kingdom, they still did it through bloodshed. How many cities, towns did they massacre in the name of their great cause? How many Highprinces (and presumably their heirs) did they kill to avoid rebellion? What happened to the higher ranked branches of the Kholin families Gavilar over-thrown to name himself Highprince? Even Dalinar later recognizes how wrong they have been to have had this war…
Truth is, the Kholins are the ones who started the hostilities. Alethkar might not have been peaceful before, but no one had launch a conquest nor a blooshsed anywhere near equivalent to what the Kholins did (that we know of). This first town we see Dalinar rampage into in OB, they didn’t even know why THEY were being attacked… but they were. Because Gavilar said so.
Hence, given their track record, it isn’t surprising an angry young man would think of trying to over-throw him. History is filled with examples of individuals refusing to bow down to an invader, and yeah often dying for it. What Tanalan is responsible of is having his city being attacked and conquered, once again. He is however not responsible for Dalinar deciding the women, the children and the civilians needing to be put to death for it. This had never happened before and if Tanalan did jeopardize his own family’s life, his responsibility stops right here. His rebellion is no different than the Kholins having done exactly the same. They do had nothing but a very small force, they do grew up into fame starting from not much. Tanalan thought he could win. So did Gavilar when he started up his war. I thus find it is impossible to state Tanalan was the one in the wrong and the Kholins were right. They were equivalent though Tanalan had yet to conquer cities and to put them to the torch. The story doesn’t say what happens if Tanalan succeeds in killing Dalinar.
I will thus firmly remain within my camp: the only reason the Kholins are seen as morally superior is because they won the war, not because they genuinely were better persons. Their motivations weren’t pure.
@40 Lisamarie:
I don’t know, I might take thrill addicted Dalinar over Faile….ok I wouldn’t, but it’s close:)
@10: I LOLd at the handmirror comment. Though it got me thinking. What if Navani or Jasnah, or any particular strong-willed Vorin woman, had been left-handed? Would they just wear an inverse havah, with the right hand covered, and just declare that hand their safehand? (Have any left-handed cosplayers considered doing this?)
@LazerWulf
Or the other extreme, a strong willed right-handed woman gets her left hand removed to prove a point about the absurdity of the practice.
@52 Gepeto
First, Dalinar did tell Tanalan he would kill every man if he insisted on fighting during their parley. So Tanalan at least was willingly risking that plus his family.
Second, for me, I don’t think the question is so much if Tanalan is responsible, but more about your thought that he must have expected a good outcome if he had won (with regards to other highprinces backing him) since he didn’t take the “no fuss” chance to get back into the kingdom. If he was at all interested in “no fuss” getting back in the kingdom, he wouldn’t have rebelled in the first place. I completely agree with @51 Isilel that Tanalan’s only motivation was revenge. This is not an indicator that there was a traitorous highprince at all. I’m still baffled that people are so certain that there was a traitor. Is it really just that it’s possible and interesting?
@56: Just to be the devil’s advocate, when Dalinar said he would kill every man, I think the underlining message was he would kill every “soldier”. Nothing was ever said of women and children nor of Tanalan’s family. In fact, Tanalan’s later behavior, when caught, tells me he expected Dalinar to spare his family… Dalinar did not threatened his family nor the civilians, but he did say he’d kill every man. I do believe he meant “soldiers”. The betrayal made him lose all control.
For the rest, my thoughts are if Tanalan didn’t take the “no fuss” chance of getting back into the kingdom, then it must have been because he realistically expected to win. If his cause had been doomed in advance, then he might have taken the hand offered to him more willingly unless he truly was stupid. I don’t think he was… if he were, then he wouldn’t be a threat, Gavilar would have bothered so much about him.
Why is there a need to have a traitor among the Highprince? I say because such a small city would have never been able to pull out a convincing rebellion without some sort of support from elsewhere. Tanalan must have had contacts with other Highprinces, some must have said they would back him up if he were to kill the Blackthorn. It may even be Tanalan was being used by others to do their dirty work as the one person standing in between them and Gavilar was Dalinar. I mean, just a bit of food for thought.
Why is it relevant? Well, you know the saying: never two without three. There are quite a few loose ends dangling from this narrative, who knows which ones Brandon will pull on?
@44 Isilel
Lol good point about the Napoleonic era.
@48 Evilmonkey
Interesting theory!
@51 Isilel
I would also add to Tanalan Jr’s pedigree from his senior. Tanalan Sr. set up a trap for a shardbearer that involved collapsing a whole cliff that resulted in crushing the houses of his own people. Dalinar muses to himself how the houses were still occupied and that Tanalan Sr. didn’t warn them to evacuate. So their deaths were very much on Tanalan Sr’s hands. Regarding Tanalan Jr, I agree. I believe he does take responsibility for his city as all rulers should. The choices he made effect more than himself. Whether personally justified or not in revenge for Dalinar, Tanalan Jr still put his people’s lives in jeopardy by starting a fresh conflict with the Kholins. At the end of the day, in war no ones hands are left clean.
@54 LazerWulf
Jasnah has written quite a few essays against the codification of gender responsibilities. In addition we do see her using a glove at the end of Words of Radiance. So to me she already is working against it, and will continue to do so.
@56 ineptmage
I think part of the reason for the traitor is it would give Tanalan more resources to potentially stand up to the Kholins. Why do I feel like it was mentioned at one point that Tanalan had men he shouldn’t have had, or mercenaries? Is that all in my head or did that really happen?
Going back to Dalinar and Evi: I think without the Thrill involved they might have come to at least a state of comfort and affection in their marriage. I don’t think it would have gotten past that. Dalinar wanted someone strong who would stand up and argue with him, that wasn’t due to the Thrill. Evi “abhored” any conflict. They were just not compatible personalities for a passionate love match.
I think there were still enough High Princes who weren’t happy that Gavilar was taking over and making himself King that any number of them may have given Tanalan at least verbal support. I would also bet they kept any proof of that well hidden. They may also have led him on just on the off chance that he succeeded. No danger to them.
The Chinesse foot binding tradition lasted for 1000 years. There have been some books written about the last surviving women with bound feet. It was a brutal practice and it was the women who did it to each other because they truely believed it was the only way to have their daughters accepted. There is one theory that keeping women mostly immobile was really for the economic purpose of forced manual labor on crafts like weaving and sewing. They couldn’t run away from their husbands or their family. Look up the pictures and articles – it is facinating and I think it makes the safe-hand look plausible. Also consider all the left handed children in America who were forced to switch to use their right hand. That was practiced as recently as 50 years ago.
@57 Gepeto
Are we sure this is a “convincing” rebellion? I think the only threat it actually poses is as a symbol that there’s no fear in standing up to Gavilar. In fact, when they find out that Tanalan has started to gather armies, Gavilar sends his forces to fight foreigners instead. Doesn’t seem like the rebel forces themselves are a threat. I will give you that Gavilar believes the other highprinces are encouraging Tanalan to rebel. But it definitely seems like a test to see how durable a united Alethkar is more so than active treason.
Now in digging for this, I think I’ve found much more convincing evidence that there really was a traitor. I think this is the reason that everyone thinks there is a traitor but none of us specifically remembered it: Gavilar’s letter to Dalinar ordering him to the Rift says “Be warned, we are certain now that one of the other highprinces — we don’t know who — is supporting Tanalan and his rebellion. He may have access to Shards.”
@58: I’m not saying she’s not working against it, I’m just trying to imagine what she would do if she WAS left-handed. Personally, I like the idea of the inverse havah. “Yeah, this is MY freehand. Deal with it.”
@61 LazerWulf
Sorry for the confusion. Basically I meant that considering she is already against it, I would imagine if she was left handed, she would still be against it. Love the quote!
Sebarial doesn’t play both sides, he doesn’t care about sides, just about business opportunities. The different Alethi highprinces are supposed to be allies anyway, the parshendi are the enemies, and Sebarial probably doesn’t trade with them (although he would probably like to, if they were willing).
Ouch, it turns out that I was wrong about Highprince Yenev, and have mangled his name too – the timing doesn’t fit, as his duel with Sadeas was 18 years prior to WoR, rather than 10, as I erroneously thought. Hm…
I can’t decide whether Tanalan Jr.’s plan was clever or foolish – his plot to turn the 3 conquerorsof Rathalas against each other and having them die thinking themselves betrayed by one of the others was elegant. However, it seems like he thought that gaining Dalinar’s Shards would have allowed him to defend himself against any retribution, which doesn’t look like a good bet to me. Did he expect that his framing of Sadeas would have resulted in the latter being recalled or even in Dalinar’s army fighting him? Because that wasn’t at all what was happening when Dalinar showed up alive, was it?
@59: I think that even without the Thrill, Dalinar would have been a soldier at heart more at ease in a warcamp than in a palace. What would have changed likely would have been the exponential increase in his “lost of control” as each time he steps foot into this wheel, the Thrill drags him further down. So I think, even if it weren’t for the Thrill, Dalinar was still being sent to Jah Keved, was still not paying much attention to his family and Evi would still feel like an outside within Alethi society. Considering Dalinar managed to keep an external image of a level-headed general during his time in Jah Keved, I don’t think much would have changed in between Evi and him.
Once in Rathalas, without the Thrill, Dalinar might have been able to calm down and come up with a less… destructive solution.
I agree they didn’t have compatible personalities. I agree Evi seemed to avoid conflict whereas Dalinar will face issues straight-away. In any world, the union in between one who seeks to keep issues quiet and one who’d rather get it out right away tends not to last very long. Usually. I don’t think it was anyone’s fault. It was both. Dalinar could have tried *harder* to show interest within his family and Evi could have been more outspoken about what she wanted. Had she told Dalinar she wanted him to be home, in Kholinar, for a given number of months per years, had she insisted he takes time to have at least one activity with Renarin, then it’s likely he would have obliged. Had Dalinar been more observant and less self-centered, he might have seen his wife needed to feel useful, so he could have tried to find her an occupation which would satisfy her without needing her to spend so much time in warcamps she hated.
@60: How convincing was Tanalan’s rebellion? It was convincing enough for Gavilar to send armed force and Dalinar to quell it. He was reluctant to do it, at first, as he claimed he wanted to try the diplomatic road instead though with Gavilar, we never know. After all, he is the man who wanted to generate a Desolation just to have his kingdom stand united against a common foe. Is it possible he wanted the rebellion to grow bigger just so he get the opportunity to unite his forces against Tanalan?
Now that I think of it, Tanalan was a rather young man, early twenties at the most. I mean, he was about Kaladin/Adolin’s age… What are the odds the other Highprinces were fueling his anger and his desire for revenge just so they get the boy to take out the Blackthorn for them? If it failed, then no harm done, the only lost would have been a twenty-something foolish young man who’s actions could always be blamed on misplaced anger.
Good catch on the letter… I am more convinced then ever there was a traitor or, at least, someone actively helping Tanalan.
@63: There is a quote within one of the early Dalinar’s flashbacks which states Sebrarial was playing both sides waiting to see who would win.
@64: Ah well, glad we now have the time frame. So not Tenev. I agree with whomever said, up there, how weird it was Sadeas didn’t seem to have other Shardbearer in his army.
I am starting to think Tanalan was being manipulated… I find it highly likely Tanalan was offered support and additional armed force shall he get everyone rid of Dalinar. I suspect Dalinar is basically what stood in between Gavilar and a real rebellion during the early years of his realm: no want wanted to cross path with him. Dalinar mentions to Evi how, now he has earned a reputation of his own, he would never be allowed to move back to Kholinar as Gavilar would fear others would support him in a rebellion.
It seems plausible to think Gavilar had a paranoia over rebellion and his kingdom not lasting… I mean, it could have run in the family… thinking others are out there to get him…
@64 Isilel
Well if I recall correctly, we know Gavilar’s concern about the Rift was that if the rebellion was allowed to continue, the other Highprinces would lose respect for Gavilar and his kingdom, and they would begin fragmenting and going their own way as well. So an example had to be made of the Rift as a warning to all other Highprinces to keep in line. So maybe that was what Tanalan was hoping for? That by resisting, Gavilar’s kingdom would crumble through backstabbing and conflict?
What if Gavilar knew he needed an example of what happens to rebellion? What if he was the one encouraging Tanalan?
@67: OMG… This would be such an amazing plot twist… Could it have been Gavilar encouraging Tanalan through a third party? Yes. I could see it happening. Gavilar was obsessed over keeping his kingdom united and he seemed to think nothing else but warfare against a common foe would achieve it.
Now that I think of it, Dalinar did tell Evi it was unlikely Gavilar would ever authorize him to move back to Kholinar, permanently, given how much of a reputation he has earned himself in Jah Keved. He stated his was too much of a threat to Gavilar’s reign. Could it be Gavilar was willing to go as far as trapping Dalinar? Hoping Tanalan would succeed?
One thing I am certain though is if Sebrarial is involved, he wasn’t the mastermind behind it. Not his style. Selling goods to Tanalan, playing both sides, yes, totally, but manipulating Tanalan? Nope. If this happened, then it was someone else.
Scáth @66:
I just wonder how Tanalan had planned to deal with Sadeas, if Dalinar didn’t, uncharacteristically, decide to parley with him. I have just re-read the chapter and the bribed scouts didn’t specify that the caravan folks wore Sadeas colors. So, normally, Dalinar would have pursued, like he did anyway, and Tanalan counted on him getting killed in his ambush, as nearly happened. But then what? Sadeas was also a seasoned general and he would have commanded 2 veteran armies. Both he and Teleb had Plate and were skilled, experienced fighters with it. Sadeas could have brought his other Sharbearers, if he indeed had them and this mention of them isn’t a continuity error. Even without Dalinar and his shards, he would have taken Rathalas, and he was the one always eager to make examples. Did Tanalan count on getting Dalinar’s shards and that somehow giving him enough edge to win? Or was one of the ambushers supposed to equip the shards and use them ditto? If so, well, he didn’t think it through beyond taking revenge on Dalinar and wilfully endangered his family and his people for the sake of it.
I still don’t understand why Tanalan claims that he was “robbed”. People do give up shardblades without dying – he traded his for his own and possibly also his mother’s survival.
I actually have considerably more understanding for Tanalan Sr. – he had a good reason to think that he had a chance to stop the upstart Kholin conquest in it’s tracks if his trap worked and got all the 3 leaders at once. And joining them seemed like a very risky proposition for Rathalas, since they didn’t look likely to prevail against the opposition.
Even if Jr. had managed to dispose of Dalinar, he’d have still had to deal with Sadeas commanding 2 armies, with at least 2 veterans in Shardplate. Even if his frame of Sadeas eventually worked, it would have been far too late for Rathalas, which would have been brutally sacked in the best case. And life under Gavilar’s rule wasn’t even particularly oppressive. Unlike his father, he sacrificed his family and his people for the sake of empty revenge.
Soursavoir@67, Gepeto @68:
I don’t think that it could have been Gavilar – he wanted to unify the Alethi in a fight against an _external_ foe. Internal dissent goes counter to that.
Galivar may not have wanted the Rift to happen but he sure took advantage of the massacre. Politically opportunistic.
Good point about Jr.’s next move had his plan proved successful. He couldn’t have really thought Torol would have treated with him afterwards had his gambit proved successful. Even if Sadeas would have been inclined to, he wouldn’t have risked it because it would not look good to the boys back home. Gavilar ain’t taking his brother’s death lying down so the only reason for Sadeas to negotiate was if he were planning to strike out on his own. At this point in the story it would be completely out of character for Sadeas to make a move like that; he’s totally dedicated to unification. And even if he wanted to strike out on his own he’s not leaving Jr. alone, a proven rebellious prince that would be a thorn in the side of any would-be dictator. Either way, Sadeas would be compelled to crush Jr. And judging Sadeas character(or lack thereof), I can imagine with the resources of 2 armies and a free hand, he would have perpetrated an atrocity just as terrible as Dalinar’s. Sadeas is all about sending messages through brutality. So maybe Jr. wasn’t actually thinking about that next step at all. I think the guy only cared about his revenge and was willing to watch the world burn as long as his aims were achieved. Sounds like Odium was the one playing both sides to me.
Does the burning of the Rift remind anyone else of the burning of Baghdad by Hulagu Khan?
@70 EvilMonkey
Heh, I came to post the same. I think Odium was pouring the Thrill into all sides of this scenario. Makes me wonder if Odium’s plan was to see who the last man standing was, and that would be his favored future champion.
@BenW, the Mongols in general would obliterate any city/castle that resisted them, while treating those who surrendered pretty well. That goes back to Temujin.
Guys Brandon did a short SA4 reading yesterday at Planet Com. Here is the transcript:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/386-planet-comicon/
On the matter of how Tanalan thought to deal with Sadeas, I think it may be he expected Gavilar to deal with Sadeas… by branding him a traitor, I suspect he planned to have Dalinar’s death fall onto his hand. Let’s imagine the scenario. Tanalan crafts a plan which has for results for Gavilar to think Sadeas had betrayed him and killed Dalinar. He wouldn’t have needed to deal with Sadeas, Gavilar would have while he, Tanalan sat in his corner, waited for the outcome to take out whomever is left. Or he uses the confusion to gather more support and hits Gavilar on his flank.
I don’t know what Gavilar had hoped out of the Rift, but he sure had a paranoia over his kingdom not lasting, breaking apart. He definitely seemed to think violence and warfare was the way to go to keep it intact. I thus think it is likely he thought having Alethkar see him quell a rebellion would take out of everyone’s head the idea of… rebelling. Tanalan just happened to be the perfect candidate: an angry young man feeling slighted for the taking of his heirloom. It could be Gavilar wanted being seen dealing with a rebellion, one he could control as opposed to waiting for a real rebellion to take form, one he wouldn’t control.
So, to recap, Gavilar fears his kingdom will not last. He himself built it through rebellion, through over-throwing everyone who stood in between himself and the throne. He is a rational man, so if he could do it, lead a successful rebellion, what is stopping someone else to achieve the same? How does he insure no one tries to over-throw him? How does he discourage everyone from even thinking of rebelling against him, from plotting to take him out, from wanting to carve themselves out of Alethar? By making sure everyone knows rebellion is futile and the price to pay would be too high. How else does he achieve this than by being seen dealing with an actual rebellion? So how does he organize a rebellion within his own kingdom? By taking an already discontent young man, fueling his anger, letting it shimmer for years and allowing him to launch a real rebellion, one which would seem like a real threat without really being one.
Hence, I think it isn’t impossible Gavilar was, at least, in part, behind the rebellion in an attempt to be seen making an example out of it for the benefit of *his* kingdom.
@74
The problem with letting Gav take care of Sadeas is that Gavilar was not on the scene. He cannot know in real time what is going on on the front lines. Any information about the events taking place would come from Sadeas had Dalinar not made it. For Gavilar to handle Sadeas he’d first have to know about it. Even if he gets the information from other means however he and his forces are at least 2 weeks away. It would take at least that long for him to get to the Rift, and since their standing army is out in the field it would take much longer to gather a force strong enough to break the army under Sadeas command. So call it a month or two. That city was sacked in one night, they had not the forces to withstand a siege of any length of time. Does any body believe that Sadeas, fighting for his political life, is going to sit on his hands for a month or two in front of a lightly defended city when he could get back in favor with a victory? Sadeas can do that type of political calculus with his eyes closed.
However, I do agree with you about Gavilar maybe feeding Jr.’s ambition in secret. It wouldn’t be impossible. Look at how long he delayed dealing with the problem? He could have purposely let a small rebellion grow to the point of conflagration, confident in Dalinar’s ability to beat any army Tanalan could possibly raise. Dalinar, Gav’s personal pocket massacre maker.
@75: Hmmmm fair point… Tanalan must have had other plans… Perhaps he had an army waiting from one of the other princedom? Or maybe he thought he could win against Sadeas’s army. It was Dalinar he thought he couldn’t defeat which is why he used treachery to try to take him, but Sadeas never had the same reputation. Or maybe Tanalan hoped the remainder of Dalinar’s army would have turned against Sadeas’s upcoming army and fought one another? Clearly, he planned for Dalinar’s army to believe the traitor was Sadeas: Dalinar only saw something was wrong at the last minute. I don’t think he was supposed to noticed this, so once Dalinar is killed, what stops Tanalan from saying: “It was Sadeas!”. He then uses Dalinar’s armies to get rid of Sadeas’s armies. Once they are done fighting, he just sets about to take out the victor, thus eliminating Gavilar’s two strongest assets.
I mean, it seems reasonable to assume Tanalan was expecting everyone to believe the traitor was Sadeas. He gets the traitors to kill the Blackthorn thus sending his army to fight Sadeas’s who wouldn’t know why he is being attacked, but would have fought back.
When I think of it, that was quite clever… Tanalan cannot defeat Dalinar nor Sadeas’s armies. They are too strong for him. So how do you set about to destroy two powerful armies? You get them to fight each other… You stand on the side and you pick out the weakened winner.
I agree about Gavilar. I too was thinking on how long he delayed the problem. Why did he wait? Gavilar was obsessed with having himself appear like a strong king, so why did he allow Tanalan to steer his rebellion for so long? If we push it even further, Gavilar might have been willing to purposefully allow a small rebellion to brew, to earn support just so he could get an excuse to send his often out-of-control brother to quell it. He might have even wanted Tanalan to kill Dalinar… Let’s think about it… Gavilar sends Dalinar away from Kholinar right after Adolin is born. He uses him on border control… Did he really need Dalinar to do this? Surely he had other generals he could have used, so why send his brother away? My suspicions are because Dalinar was becoming a problem: he was out-of-control, he was maiming men in taverns, he was disrespectable and a stain on Gavilar’s appearance of an honorable rule.
So I think Gavilar sent Dalinar away to get rid of him, to get rid of a problem he didn’t know how to deal with. He then allowed a rebellion to grow in importance just so he would get the opportunity to send his brother in. He then sets an example of what rebellion means to the other Highprinces while potentially getting honorably rid of his brother. Or maybe he didn’t plan to get rid of Dalinar, but to use him as the terrifying bully protecting his rule. Either way, Gavilar wins.
@several
All your questions on what Tanalan was planning on doing about Sadeas to me reinforces the idea that they had planned the ambush together. That’s the easiest way for them both to have gotten rid of Dalinar without potentially dangerous questions being asked.
I can imagine a thrill-addled Jr. maybe convincing himself that he could pull off that sort of double cross, but it would have been a delusion brought on by desperation and thirst for revenge. Sadeas may not have the reputation Dalinar had but he’s a good enough general to hold the 2 armies together in front of an enemy city, especially for such a short term engagement. Remember, back in the day the Kholin army and the Sadeas army did not loathe each other the way they do on the Shattered Plains.
Then, Tanalan could shout from the rooftops that Sadeas betrayed Dalinar, but who’d believe him? Especially if Sadeas is issuing a battle cry, Revenge for Dalinar or some such. That’s exactly what he planned to do if his betrayal at The Tower proved successful. There would have to be a plant in Dalinar’s army spreading the dissent. Thing is, that sort of thing takes time. In an extended siege like the Shattered Plains turned out to be that becomes an ideal strategy. But for a city they knocked over in hours? Not enough time for the poison to do its work. It may put Sadeas in some hot water later but Jr. would have been long dead before that bore fruit.
You know what I think happened? I think Jr. knew his city was toast as soon as the armies showed up on the horizon, maybe even weeks before that. So he figured, hey! I’m probably dead anyway, maybe I can take out the bastard who killed my daddy. I got a desperate gambit that might work, probably not but I have no other plans at this point. But work or not, at least Dalinar would be dead. And the sad kicker is that thanks to Evi he had much better terms than could ever be expected for a traitor of the realm. He should have took the deal and worked on revenge in a way where his people would be safe. He got impatient, let the plan go forward instead of pulling the plug and buying himself a better opportunity.
@76 Gepeto
Regarding Tanalan’s clever hypothetical plan to get Dalinar and Sadeas’ armies to fight each other. We can be pretty certain this is not his plan because he has his men kill Dalinar’s men before Dalinar comes back. If his plan was to convince anyone that Sadeas was the betrayer, he wouldn’t have turned on Dalinar’s forces at the first chance.
@79 ineptmage
I think he had to get rid of Dalinar’s men because they are loyal to Dalinar and wouldn’t be willing to take what Sadeas has to say at face value, even though they were allies. One more sign that makes the Tanalan/Sadeas alliance more believable.
Quite a bit to catch up on, here we go!
@69 Isilel
Well concerning a lot of discussions, I keep on going back to how the Alethi function as a society. If I want to rule a city, I have to have either the money to back it up or the forces to back it up, or just kill anyone who would oppose me. Same goes for a princedom, and same goes for the entire country. At the time of Gavilar’s conquest, that is how everyone worked. Everyone had carved out their own little kingdom and ran things their own way. Till someone else was able to gain more power, or build an army, or “remove” the existing ruler and take over in their place. As per Dalinar, this led to rampant abuse on all sides. If we are to take them at their words then Gavilar and Dalinar used Alethi society against itself. Their plan was to claw to the top via strength of arms and removing any who oppose them. Then force everyone under one rule, and make Alethkar a united kingdom. No more infighting and constant changing rulers. A united country in form and purpose. Just like their ancestor Sunmaker before them. It could also be pointed out that Sunmaker went further (all the way to Azir), and did far worse than Gavilar and co. Why do I think this is important in answering what Tanalan Jr. had in mind? Because Gavilar felt his little rebellion threatened that. Its shear existence called into question if Gavilar really was the king of all of Alethkar as he claimed he was. This was still early in Gavilar’s rule, so the way Alethi Society functioned was still very much in force. Why would anyone follow Gavilar if he didn’t have the weight to keep his own countrymen in line? Why would anyone support Gavilar if he couldn’t command obedience of some city?
So what would Tanalan do if he had succeeded in his trap of Dalinar? If he could prove he killed the Blackthorn, Gavilar’s prized weapon. If we could prove he held off the Blackthorn’s elites against all odds, then he already struck a killing blow to Gavilar’s kingdom. Sure Gavilar could send Sadeas, but once the other Highprinces find out the Blackthorn was killed by this young upstart, Tanalan Jr. would potentially find himself with many offers of support. Then Gavilar would not only have to deal with other highprinces deciding to individually break off from the kingdom, and him having to try and bring them back in line as well, but also have to deal with a rebellion with growing troops and support. We have seen how fickle the highprinces can be when their own wellbeing and wealth is on the line. I think if Tanalan Jr. had killed the Blackthorn, and then played his cards right, he could have ended Gavilar’s kingdom before it began.
As to why Tanalan Jr. claimed he was robbed, that was so he would have a “legal” claim for his rebellion. That “the Kholins aren’t honorable. They didn’t win my father’s shardblade the way they should have. So they are the usurpers, not me”. This was done all the time in ancient times. It wasn’t enough to declare war on another country. You had to announce it was because the opposing ruler is godless or worshiping the wrong faith, so you are saving their people (The church against Queen Elizabeth supporting her enemies). You had to say you were returning your countrymen stolen from their home back into the fold (Hitler with Poland). Basically you are making a claim to make your cause sound “right”.
I agree with your rationale regarding Gavilar. If he wanted to unite Alethkar, it wouldn’t make sense for him to risk fragmenting his rule so early. I think the risk would outweigh the reward.
@72 nightheron
Good point about Odium and the Thrill!
See? The immediate next step is the crux of the issue. Dalinar’s army is there already. Sadeas’ army is there already. Unless Jr. had an army in his back pocket there’s nothing he could do to defeat the forces in front of him. He knocks off Dalinar. All well and good. He doesn’t have a plan to handle Sadeas. Kholin troops aren’t going to turn to defend the Rift against Sadeas under Tanalan Jr. Any damage to Gavilar’s rule happens after Jr.’s long dead; Sadeas would never let him live. Likewise, any support or encouragement he may have received from other Highprinces evaporated once those armies arrived at his doorstep. Because no matter what they said to him, nobody sent any material aid. No troops, likely no money for mercenaries, no weapons or war machines, nothing but perfumed words and empty promises.
@83 EvilMonkey
So this gets into chapter 75, which we have not reached yet, so I will white it out, since I figure those that wish to discuss this further then will wait till then. My response below:
On page 740, Teleb figured the King would want to come himself to avenge Dalinar, so they were going to wait. Dalinar is the one that said it was too slow. Sadeas proposed another option, but the king…..(they didn’t finish the sentence but the implication is the king overruled Sadeas). Sadeas is the one that pushes Dalinar to punish the Rift to end all thoughts of rebellion in the future. Could this mean he was trying to cover evidence of his betrayal? Maybe. Either way from the book, Gavilar was going to wait. Sadeas pushed to do a rushed attack and drove Dalinar forward. Guess it is left to us to wonder what would have happened had Dalinar died. Would have Sadeas obeyed Gavilar and waited? Would that time have been enough? We may never know.
@83 Evil Monkey
Actually, going a little further, chapter 76 confirms what I wrote above. Whited out below:
Page 743 It is confirmed Gavilar’s last orders thinking Dalinar was dead was to wait and lay siege to the city.
Sadeas goes on to explain “A display. Tanalan’s plan was clever, but risky. He knew his chances of winning here depended on removing you and your shards from the battle.”
Had Tanalan killed Dalinar, Sadeas’s forces would have had to fight for every street. Tanalan potentially could have fed the plate from Dalinar’s corpse with stormlight during the siege, and became a full shardbearer with blade and plate to defend his city.
As is storming the city was bloody and a hard fight, and that did not count entering the city.
So it looks like all of our questions get answered around Chapter 76.
Sadeas with a free hand is always the scarier proposition in my opinion. Dalinar may kill you but you may have a chance if he’s feeling particularly honorable that day, plus he doesn’t really do torture and cruelty. Sadeas will kill you too, but you may have to watch all your female relatives get raped before you die. Sadeas as the highest ranking dude in the field had Dalinar perished would not have waited or hesitated wiping the Rift off the face of the planet. He would have presented Gavilar with a city full of slaves and Jr.’s head on a pike.
@87 EvilMonkey
More in chapter 76
page 745 “You were right about the scouts who turned traitor. We bribed one to turn on the others, and will execute the rest. The plan was apparently to separate you from the army, then hopefully kill you. Even if you were simply delayed, the Rift was hoping their lies would prompt your army into reckless attack without you”
“They weren’t counting on your swift arrival”
“or your tenacity”
“Tanalan’s soldiers tried to organize a fight back out of the Rift, but they’d surrendered the high ground, expecting Dalinar to do as he had before, conquering and controlling”
The purpose of my posts aren’t to say whether Tanalan would have succeeded or not. Just to point out there was reasoning, and it is explained in the book.
@80 RogerParavelle
I don’t understand your point. If Tanalan’s goal was to make Dalinar’s army fight Sadeas’ army, the only way to do that is if Dalinar’s soldiers distrust Sadeas more than Tanalan. Why would he want to prevent Dalinar’s men from not taking what Sadeas said “at face value?” If your point is not about my comment at all, then I guess I don’t understand a need for a distinction between Talanel killing them to avoid them not trusting Sadeas and Talanel killing them because they had no intention of surrendering.
@89
My point was that, for me, this further points to Tanalan conspiring with Sadeas to get rid of Dalinar. It’s the only way I can see that his actions or plans make sense.
@79: But Tanalan killed some of Dalinar’s men, he did not exterminate his entire army. He had to have the betrayal feel complete.
I still think this might have been Tanalan’s plan all along. Well, perhaps not all along, but as soon as his spies saw the two armies marching towards him, he crafted the plan. Clearly, the trap had been planned in advance. He couldn’t have guessed Dalinar would try to parley: that’s not Dalinar’s typical ways. He isn’t known to be the one to offer parley. So he had to have had thought of a mean to stir Dalinar into the trap. Since survivors weren’t expected, surely he had scouts planted there to report back to the remainder of Dalinar’s army “Sadeas’s” betrayal.
My point is if Dalinar’s men were convinced Sadeas did kill Dalinar, no shoots of innocence would convince otherwise: they would thoroughly rammed through his army.
Or his end game might have simply been to kill Dalinar, to take ownership of his Shards thinking removing the Blackthorn and becoming a Shardbearer would be enough to fend of the two armies. After all, Rathalas is a highly defensible city.
On Tanalan’s claims of having been robbed: Whether or not the way Dalinar took ownership of Oathbringer legally counts as robbing or not, Tanalan has enough of a story to make a go for it. And yeah, he is using it to justify his rebellion.
@87: Back in those days, Sadeas wasn’t the one with a reputation for brutality: Dalinar was.
@89: They would, if they believed Sadeas’s men killed Dalinar. That’s the key: having Dalinar’s men being utterly convinced the Blackthorn was killed by Sadeas’s men.
@Gepeto
I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree on this point. I don’t believe for a second that anything Jr. could have said or done would have convinced Dalinar’s army to turn on Sadeas before the Rift was obliterated, though I will grant that he could have thought it would work. He doesn’t know Sadeas by anything other than reputation (presumably).
Dalinar had the reputation for brutality but remember that first flashback. Sadeas was choosing which women he was going to rape that night before Dalinar put the brakes on the whole endeavor. Rep ain’t everything.
@92: LOL, this isn’t a hilll I am willing to die on! I don’t know the answer as to what Tanalan really expected and what his plan truly was, I can only try to guess. I am perfectly happy to disagree with you, I just happen to think perhaps Tanalan had enough of a plan to make a go for it. Maybe it wouldn’t have worked, but I do think, if he played his cards right, it might.
As for reputation, Sadeas might have wanted to rape women, but Dalinar still is the one who carries the reputation for being ruthless and merciless. Tanalan only knows Dalinar per reputation though he also knows he once spared him. I suspect he expected, if things goes from bad to worst, Dalinar wouldn’t harm his family, but I do think his plan highlights he did consider Dalinar was the one he needed to defeat, not Sadeas.
In other other words, the Blackthorn conquered this kingdom and the threat of his name has been enought to keep it together. Sadeas might have been equally dangerous, but I don’t think Tanalan knows this.
I think all everyone involve knows is Dalinar Kholin needs to die if they are to stand a chance. And as I said somewhere in the this thread, I am willing to bet there were others waiting to see if Tanalan would be successful. This feeling is what made me think Tanalan was the guinea pig, the sacrifice: his anger was used against him in hopes he would achieved what others lacked the courage to attempt.
But up until we get more data, this will remain a discussion made of “I think”, so yeah, we all think differently. That’s the fun of it.
@91 Gepeto
But my point is, why would Tanalan kill Dalinar’s men at all if he wanted Dalinar’s army to believe Sadeas killed Dalinar? Much better to have Dalinar’s men stationed on the walls of Rathalas hear that Sadeas killed Dalinar to help stir the pot. Announcing to Dalinar’s entire army that Tanalan has betrayed Dalinar’s trust is entirely counter to trying to convince Dalinar’s army that Sadeas is the real bad guy.
I like the idea that Tanalan could have taken the strategy you propose, but I think him murdering Dalinar’s men is a big indicator that it was either not his plan at all, or that he is completely inept. The only way it works is if he throws up some Sadeas banners as he’s murdering Dalinar’s men and announces “ha, I’ve been working with Sadeas all along and helped him betray Dalinar, now Sadeas’s army is arriving and you’re all doomed!” and hoped that Dalinar’s army panics and attacks Sadeas. He didn’t do any of that, so it seems unlikely that it was his plan.
One thing I would like the forum’s opinion on: Could Tanalan have pulled out at this last moment? As ineptmage pointed out in post 60, Gavilar’s research indicates that there probably was a traitor highprince, so is there any reason that Tanalan couldn’t have given the actual traitor’s name, told Dalinar “don’t follow up on that caravan, it was a trap I set for you before you proposed this peace offer”, and saved his life, rank, and city? Because it makes a big difference whether Tanalan could still have avoided a battle, or whether he was in fact already in too deep to pull out.